Enbloc News: Latest on Pine Grove

By The Folks @PropTalk - April 20, 2011 166 Comments

According to the TODAY paper, the marketing agent Jones Lang LaSalle declined to comment if any bids were received for the tender, or when the results of the tender will be released. This is after the tender for Pine Grove - possibly the most expensive property to go en bloc - closed yesterday.

Are we being too presumptuous to think that if a bid was received at the $1.7 billion asking price, someone would have made an announcement by now....?

Pine Grove Status

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166 comments to ''Enbloc News: Latest on Pine Grove"

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  1. If a bid or a few bids have been submitted, JLL will announce that it has received a few bids and it is considering the bids and will make an announcement soon.


    If no bids, just keep glumly quiet?

    Cavendish owner.

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  2. Astor Green or Cavendish Park should try for an en bloc. The amounts involved to purchase is not so huge for developers.

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  3. It goes without saying. If it is successful it is going to be a good publicity for JLL and they will shout to the world....the biggest en bloc success. My two cents worth. Pine Grove has got potential but not at this price. Sales committee and or JLL has got to be realistic and read the ground conditions. Developers are no fool.

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  4. Private treaty on-going?



    Cavendish owner

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  5. Ptivate treaty perhaps but then not at the reserved price. Which means another round of voting to get 80% consenses which is not easy.

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  6. Yes. From what i heard, the offered price was not at the reserved price which means more negotiations.... keeps fingers crossed

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  7. Not to worry. From what I have also heard, more than 1 consortium offered prices, but not at the reserved price. This is not unexpected as it is part and parcel of any negotiation. The PG owners would not sell unless the final offer is close to the reserve price. Over 80% of the PG apartments are owner occupied and they would not sell unless they get a good deal. Take a case of the point block apartment at PG with an area of about 1750sf: to get a similar replacement unit nearby would require close to $2m, say $1.8m. So no incentive at all to sell the PG apartment at even $2m, when you factor in the stamp duty, hassle of finding new place relocating and the renovation cost. You may no even get a replacement unit with the overall ambience and spaciousness of the vast PG estate. Might as well stay put and wait for the next enbloc @ higher price......Perhaps $2.3m per pt block apartment would be about right; that would price the final offer at close to $1.45b to $1.5b. All the enlightened developers know that, lah ..... so just wait for some +ve news.

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  8. I understand that most pine grove residents are retirees and their apartments are fuly paid. If they do not get a good offer they are not going to give the 80% vote for the lower price. I have been told that the reserved price had been increased twice to attract the 80%. Now they do not want to be short changed. Replacement cost is high for same size unit unless downgrade.

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  9. If I have a unit in pine grove I will definately wait for another enbloc exercise. Price will only go up. Pine grove is in good position to command an even better price.

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  10. The Folks @PropTalkApril 22, 2011 at 11:24 PM

    Anonymous (22/4/11, 10:36PM):
    While we appreciate where your coming from, we cannot help but recall a close cousin of Pine Grove - Tulip Garden. Sure, they went from $516 million in 2007 to a higher reserved price of $650 million in 2011, but the "better" price is a mute point if you do not get any offers. Besides, I do not think anyone can really see beyond 2011 as far as market/economic conditions are concerned....
    Just our humble opinion as always! :)

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  11. Recollecting what Mr Mah said...he said wait a few more years.....meaning that there will be a glut of supply? Economics 101...supply exceeds demand and prices will fall...

    My two cents worth...

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  12. How much land can the Govt release under the GLS? especially in the central part of Singapore? Not many, except for an occasional gem like the Bishan area and that went for a cool close to $900 psf ppr. Even then, outlaying sites which are close to MRT station under the GLS is fetching high prices; for transactions and details, can go to the URA and the HDB websites under the announcement section. For Pine Grove, at $1.7b, and factoring in the DC and DP of $460m, that translates to about $1100 psf ppr; compare that to the ongoing enbloc sale of Pearlbank apartment asking for about $1500 psf ppr without even factoring in the DC and DP!!!.The only negative point against PG is the size of the land, of which only big big developers, forming consortiums, can have the resources to purchase. But what prevent them from buying, then dividing the plot for sub-plot sales to other developers. PG site with its location and attributes, while zoned as residential, offers opportunity of being built as a mixed-site development with Govt permission to fill a much-needed gap in that part of Singapore.

    As for the comparison to Tulip Garden, I think the plot is not that rectangular in shape, and the site sits right at the corner of two busy roads,and viaduct, and hence the problem of the noise and dust pollution. Not so with PG with a nice stretchs of parklane strips separating it from the Ulu Pandan and Clement roads. My five cents worth; dexter

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  13. I think pine grove enbloc cannot be successful since tbere is no taker to meet the reserve price. Previous reports mentioned there is a "save pine grove" group who opposed to the enbloc exercise. I think they will be out in full force again if the sales committe recommends a lower price if this an offer. To get 80% consensus for this second round of voting is very difficult. The first round was almost impossible if not for the sales committee tp raise the reserve price twice to attract signatures. Of course they are in a dilemma. Trying to make it attractive for residents but asking price becomes too much. In addition thre is uncertainty in the global outlook. Once oil prices cannot be contained developers will certainly take a cautious approach. My sister is staying in pine grove and offer her signature to the enbloc exercise because the reserve price is too attractive. Otherwise it a no-go due to the high replacement cost for the same size.

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  14. The reserve price of $1.7b is not a sacred cow. Human psychology is that once the 80% consensus has been reached, the rest of the "unconverted" stays put, and have the advantage of not paying the upfront fee, for it to pay the marketing and legal firms for their initial preliminary works.These group of owners also have the advantage of making appeals to the STB to state their cases/grievances for compensations; for that reason, should the sale proceeds, a small % of the sale proceeds is being kept aside for this purpose. Shortly, the PG sale committee will have to convene a meeting to update the owners on the best negotiated offer, and the owners will take it from there. If the firm offer is not too far from the reserve price for the owners to address the high replacement cost matter, then reality will set in and all things taken in consideration by each owner, to say YES or NO in the attempt to re-reach the 80% consensus( which is very real this time). What is your take on the final offer price and the final % consensus, in due course? Your guess is as good as mine! Dexter

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  15. So, when will they release the results?

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  16. I think the answer is pretty obvious since JLL is still keeping quiet. If there were bids the difference must be too great. I believe the sales committee is having a hard time to gather the 80% consensus again. I think they have one month after the closing of the bid to negotiate a private treaty. Then the final "best" price will be put to vote. Remember, they only gather the necessary 80% signatures, not an overwhelming percentage. Therefore, the situation now is very tricky. Those sitting on the fence and sign for the enbloc will think twice to accept a lower price for their property. It is as simple as that.

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  17. OK, watch for 20 May 2011.

    Also, PG in no close cousin of Tulip Garden.

    Tulip Garden is in a very good location, District 10. PG only in D21 Clementi

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  18. 20May? Any significant?

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  19. Pine Grove residents are in a good position. No enbloc the residents live in a garden like environment with easy assess to work, PCN just a around the door step, the place is windy and cool through the year. Grocery store in Clementi, NTC Fairest. etc etc, lot of good things that even those living in Orchard do not have.

    A creative developer can built a garden like mix condo, bungalow, land semi which not other plot of land can offer.

    Pine Grove residents can afford to wait.

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  20. I do not disagree that Pine Grove is in a good position but it seems most of the time the timing is wrong or obstructed by unforeseen forces. We know that the reserved price had not been met. Perhaps there are some negotiation going on, but how far from the reserved price is a factor. In addition, this election can also has an impact to developers' decision. Affordable housing including private housing is a hot debate issue. If the results of the election dictates that the PAP lost a size-able support (of course they will still be the government)they will definitely put in more measures to stop property price to go up north.
    Developers are watch and will be very cautious. If this is the case, they might shy away irrespective of pine grove has good potential.

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  21. I fully agreed with the comment by the preceding commentator. Competition amongst developers for this gem site is good for the PG owners.

    As for the comparison between Tulip Garden and PG:
    TulipG is freehold; PG is 99-year; so 10% premium to TulipG.
    Location-wise, PG is just on the border between district 10 and district 21. PG is adjacent to freehold properties like Pandan Valley, Ridgewood, Beaverton Court. Geographically, in term of dimarcation, PG and also adjacent Cavendish Park and Astor Green should be put under district 10; the only reason I can think of is that these 3 properties have are sitting on 99-year leasehold land.

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  22. Have the en bloc sales committe no sense of duty to declare the results?

    Are they hoping for some miracle?

    Just keep quiet and hope subsidiary proprietors and press won't notice?

    Probably they will be all voted out and hang their heads in shame in wasting everyone's time when they were warned not to make ridiculous promises. Of course some are very thick skinned and only want more money. If want so much cash, then play the stock market or invest in manufacturing or services rather than play with other people's homes.

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  23. I fully agreed with the comment that so far no news from both the marketing agent and sales committee are doing no good for them. At least the sales committee must quickly inform the PG owners the outcome of the bid without going into details if it endanger on-going negotiations. This is the least they can do.

    Today's Straits Times Page A3 report on Laguana Park going enbloc does not do well for PG. Read the last three paragraphs.

    I think the owners will not vote for a reduced reserved price and most probably get another sales committee to re-organise another enbloc exercise until they can achieve their goal or wait out for a more exciting time.

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  24. The Folks @PropTalkApril 27, 2011 at 6:17 PM

    The wife and I have just returned home from our short trip and are pleasantly surprised with the good discussion thread generated by our post on PG.

    We just have one clarification and one comment to make on the contributions so far:

    Anonymous (25/4/11, 2:28PM): By "close cousin", we were actually referring to the proximity of the two projects (i.e. PG & Tulip). Hopefully we have not touched any raw nerves by associating a D21 leasehold project with a supposedly more *ahem* "glamorous" project in D10... :)

    Anonymous (26/4/11, 9:00PM): As far as we know, the reason why PG, Cavendish Park and Astor Green are all in D21 is because they are located along/behind Ulu Pandan Road. Holland Road (D10) actually ends just after Allsworth Park and anything after Allsworth will fall under Ulu Pandan (D21). And to reassure you that it has nothing to do with land tenure (i.e. freehold versus 99-year), even Pandan Valley (freehold) is D21 - simply because of the Holland/Ulu Panadan difference.
    It may seem unfair to some, especially given the close proximity of all these projects, but such is life...

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  25. this time PG owners really fuming. No sound no picture from both the marketing agent and sales committee. My mother is living there and was sweet talk into signing for the enbloc. Now, when she asked no body from the sales committee wants to answer. Funny. Do you think she will sign again when asked? Good news or bad news answer lah? what's the problem.

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  26. The election results out. Now the government will further tighten the property market. Tougher for PG to find buyer.

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  27. tightening property market? do you know how much $$$ has been tied to the property asset? you tighten, the market goes down, and all property owners suffer, and the economy nosedives and everybody suffers. the Govt only ensures that the property prices keep pace with the economy and our earnings, especially for public housing, but leave the private property market untouched ie largely determined by supply and demand. assistance in big housing grants will probably be given to first-time buyers of HDB flats for 3-rm and 4-rm flats; for 5-rm including executive condos, perhaps the lifting of income ceiling from $8K to $10k. that way, all property owners should be happy. in fact, I even have an unusual idea to reinforce the notion that citizenship has its privilege: for all Singaporeans irrespective of their income can have a one-time purchase of direct HDB flat up to 4 room, once in their lifetime. that will greatly help those elderly
    Singaporeans to monetize their existing private property, to retire in affordable new HDB flat and saving the profits derived from the sale of their private property for their retirement. just a rough idea but can be finetuned over time

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  28. Govt going to review foreign workers influx and tightening immigration policy can impact private housing. Together with upcoming 30k or so units going to be completed will deter developers for offering any price close to the reserved price. Since the election ended with reduced percentage point for PAP they are reviewing all policies that make people unhappy. The longer they hold letting citizens know the remedies PG will miss the dateline. Developers are opening their ears plugged to the ground. I work for developer here. My five cts worth.

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  29. The Folks @PropTalkMay 9, 2011 at 2:19 PM

    The other issue that the Govt need to address is that of the "sandwiched class" - people living in HDB who want to upgrade to a bigger flat/private property but are currently being priced out.

    There are already talks of increasing the max. monthly income level for HDB qualification from $8k - $10k. If this comes through, the "income criterion" for Build-To-Order flats (BTO) & Executive Condominiums (EC) are likely to be raised too. This may put downward pressure on private home prices given that portion of the housing demand will be channeled to BTO & especially EC.

    And one must not dismiss the possibility of further property cooling measures by the Govt if current prices for private properties continue to move upwards. The wife and I reckon that such measures may be announced within the next 3 months, if the property market remains as bouyant.

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  30. Tonoght channel 8 announced the highest bid for PG is only $1.2b much lower than the reserve price of 1.7
    This is before election offer. You can imagine the reaction from PG owners. No wonder there is a long silence from both agent and sales committee. My mum who had been sweet talk into selling for enblocwill not vote for this reduced price.

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  31. Shocked on the low bid and the valuation of 1.25b shows that the agent n sales committee are all talking nonsense. CNA reported bid on 1.275 shows that after all the sweet talk about PG estate does not bite. Developers are vulture but i cannot blame them as this is no small sum. ;(

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  32. 1.275b is too low, and 1.7b reserve price is too high; so negotiation to meet half way. if the big enbloc sales in strategic areas like PG, Tulip Garden, Laguna Park, People's Park, Hawaii Tower, Pandan Valley, Ridgewood etc do not go through, very soon the developers will run out of landbank, except for bidding for GLS mainly in outlying areas, and for smaller enbloc sales of smaller area less than 100m. come 5 years down the line, the central area will once again before super hot ...

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  33. Having read all the postings here I can imagine the owners of PG think they have been sbort changed by their sales commitee. Mostl probably they hear the first hand information from the media instead of the sales committee. I can imagine they must be very angry. Do you think they will vote again for a reduce offer?

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  34. CSC loss of face. JLL loss of face. L&L loss of face.

    All the talk about sure to get $1.7 bill in the face of the realistic minority "retirees" who argued sure cannot. Who was right? The retirees.

    Now they want to have second bite of cherry after failing in open bid, still hope to get it through by private treaty. Fair or not?

    Obviously private treaty is private and confidential until put to owners. Figure will be less than what CSC assured owners they could fetch. Some analysts say "Be realistic". Retirees say "We told you so. But you dun wanna listen and entice owners by promising can get $1.7 billion."

    80%+ will sell for $1.7 billion. But for anything less, surely cannot get 80%+ any more. Yet want to try and try. Just to save face. Face very important for CSC. So must every day try and try. But don't keep others up to date in case ultimately fail. When fail, will blame market, government, DC, developers, but will not admit incompetence. Will not admit they were warned on futility of exercise. Will not want any loss of face. So can stay on management committee and be on next CSC. Will keep trying and trying year in and year out. So cannot show loss of face. Ultimate goal of course is cash. Just as important as face.

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  35. I was told by my mum that JLLwarned them that 1.7b too unrealistic which was recorded in the minute and displayed on notice board. But nevertheless they went ahead. Letting owners hear the news from outside source has ready damaged the relationship. Can u imagine they want the support again to get 80%? I think it is not fair for the owners of PG. why like that? I told my mum if she wants to sell she shoukd do it in nov riding the enbloc exercise because of no faith in the reserved price. Now the market price is different. I went to chevk on ura website. The highest for 1700+ sq ft sold in dec was 1.78 a rather good price. Looks like this owner can read the situation well

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  36. I like to add that JLL should take the biggest blame. If you think the 1.7b is unrealistic why go ahead? Under pressure? Take a gamble and played with owners sentiment? At the end itt is all about $$$. I think JLL has lost its standing in the market place.

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  37. To Anonymous on 11/5/11 6.48 AM....Why is $1.78M a good price for 1700 plus sq feet ? Assuming $1,780,000 for 1754 sq feet, psf is $1015psf.

    Based on TODAY news report, if the project was sold for $1.25Billion, a 1,163 sq feet apartment would get $1.57 Million, which is about $1,349 psf.

    Hence, selling en bloc will be better?

    "CSC loss of face. JLL loss of face. L&L loss of face."

    Question :
    Who is CSC?
    Who is L & L ?

    Thanks for reading

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  38. Of course enbloc price is better. But can you guarantee it will be successful in the reserved price. I believe the one who sold his apt for 1.78m does not believe in the reserved price. and now he is right. With the analyst recommendation of 1.275b it works out to be 1.9m for the same size of 1700+ sq ft. So, 1.78m is right price and fair leaving some profit for the invest who takes the risk. But now the guy who sold is smart and can read the ground very well.
    Pine Grove is run down. Upgrade HDB is much better. Unfortunately nobody wants to upgrade PG. where can you get an estate that each block is spaciously distant from the next block.
    My mum's unit is 1700+ sq ft and with the reserved price of 1.7b, the unit is worth 2.65m. Of course, she wants the enbloc to be successful but reality separates dream.
    So, that guy who sold it for 1.78m is taking a great challenge because if reserved price was met, it means he lost 800+K, a buy a studio apt.
    So, who is lucky...the guy or the investor?

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  39. The Folks @PropTalkMay 11, 2011 at 7:55 PM

    In our humble opinion (as always), a bird in hand is definitely worth two in the bush.

    And besides, if you priced a 1700+sqft unit in PG for $1.8 million(or more), will anyone bite? For those who are buying in anticipation of en bloc, they will want fair reward for the risk they are about to take. For those who are buying for own-stay, it is probably a tad too high a price to pay at $1.8 mil.

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  40. Some people say some on management of some estate deliberately run down estates so owners can be persuaded to go en bloc. Actually, only need to upgrade lifts (even HDB have lift upgrading) and some common facilities, including condos with pools: more upmarket pool side furniture and keep place cleaner, and pay for maintaining properly and then you will see there is actually no run down estate despite claims. Some say tricky pro-en bloc people like to play tricks like that in some estates. Not sure which ones though. But if there are, maybe they will be voted out for playing tricks like that.

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  41. Property prices move up and down. Don't just peg at price analyts on channelnewsasia or Today suggest. Peg at 10-15% above what people pay for Trizon (even if not all units at Trizon have been sold).

    Kim Eng (?) has suggest $2.2 billion for Pine Grove. Could be more one day. Depends whether you are in a hurry to sell your Pine Grove unit. If in a hurry, better sell out as an individual rather than collectively, and try en blocing at your new place if so desparate to en bloc. Your chances are better elsewhere given the number of smart owners at Pine Grove who have read about $2.2 billion valuation, and realise this can be attained if they wait just a bit longer.

    So those in a hurry, find somewhere else to en bloc.

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  42. Laguna Park will be launched for tender soon. $1.25b reserved price estimate $920 psf per plot ratio. An additional choice for developers to consider over Pearl Bank and Pine Grove.

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  43. No right or wrong for someone to take profit before waiting for tender. The same situation as in you play blackjack. You got blackjack and the dealer got an Ace. If you want the money now, it will be less at even payout. If you want extra payout, you will risk the dealer getting blackjack and endup getting nothing. Prices will decline in a failed enbloc.

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  44. The Folks @PropTalkMay 11, 2011 at 9:59 PM

    We like the "blackjack" example. Good job! :)

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  45. To Anonymous (posted 11/5/11, 9.27pm)

    The Kim Eng Report posted on this blog in April 2011 did not value PG at SGD2.2Biliion.

    The report said it will cost developer SGD2.2 Billion to develop the place (now known as PG)...That's what it said. Someone please correct me if I am wrong

    April Sunshine

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  46. I like the folks analogy. Price will dip if enbloc failed. But the saddest part is there is zero bid and owners are kept in the dark. The relationship between owners n sales committee is thus strained. Therefore collecting signatures again is difficult. If you check ura website two months leading to closing of enbloc results prices range from 1.4 to 1.5 taking the 1700+sq ft for comparison. Once the success of enbloc was announced the price shot to 1.78 which now stands as the highest in the open market.
    I think at most PG can only priced at around 1.2 Perhaps wait another 2 yrs to launch again.

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  47. the writer is pretty right that 1.78m is a record so far although I have checked PropertyGuru website that people still trying to sell at 2.1 or 2.0 even when JLL and Sales committee are silent on the bid.
    Or are they just trying their luck that some blind rich fellow with plenty of cash to throw will bite.

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  48. The Folks @PropTalkMay 12, 2011 at 2:34 PM

    Anonymous (12/5/11, 2:25PM): TRYING being the operative word here. The wife and I have also been trying to strike the first prize in ToTo for the longest time. But we'll be sure to let you know once we succeed. :)

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  49. looking objectively, nearby Astor Green, Cavendish, all 99-year leasehold apartments are transacting close to $1000 psf. Also in nearby district 5, eg Normanton Park also transacting around $1000psf. Thus PG is also be in that dollar league. most of the PG apartments are about 1750 sf in size, so should be fetching around 1.7+ million, without without the halo effect of enbloc. PG owners will not enbloc for another thing below $2million; the opportunity/replacment cost is simply not attractive; yes, $2.6m may be too high, but something close to $2.2m would be more acceptable; heaven can wait

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  50. Only need to remind you what Minister Shanmugam said: "there is no one-size-fits-all solution for the provision of valuation reports to guide owners when they are signing the CSA. Ultimately, it depends on the risk appetite and comfort level of different owners. Furthermore, valuation reports have a shelf life of a few weeks to several months depending on the volatility of the property market. Hence, it is best to leave it to the owners to jointly decide on the number and frequency of valuations to be carried out. We do not mandate that it should only be given at that point in time. We mandate that it should be given at such a point in time and all other points in time – it is up to the owners to decide if they want further valuations.."

    If there's no consensus on valuation of Pine Grove: simply call for another valuation report.

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  51. Anyone know about PG receiving any private offer?

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  52. Be prepared for another round of cooling measures as it is reported on 16/5/2011 "Developer sales up 29% in April".

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  53. As the economy is doing well, it is not surprising that the developer sales is up in April, but this does not mean that another round of cooling measures is coming, unless the increase in transaction volume is matched with much higher transaction prices... but this is definitely not the case; prices per sf stay stay more or less the same; high transaction volume is mainly attributed to the sales of new property development in smaller-sized units.Morever, most of this units are bought by Singaporeans and PRs. in fact, the present property cooling measures are already very strigent and more property cooling measures will definitely tip our economy into a tailspin; so things remain status quo, lah. No need to panic

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  54. I think the government faces a difficult task in differentiating genuine demand surges and speculative runs.

    The genuine demand is strongly supported by the rising income levels but additionally, by baby boomers retiring and buying their last property: either for long-term investment for own-stay. The category is starting its run up now and should be substantial for the next 5-7 years.

    Many boomers have the capital and view of beating inflation by investing in private property for rental investment.

    This would not correctly be categorized as speculative demand and the government has to trend lightly or face the another backlash from this group at the next election.

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  55. Heard many in Marine Parade, Joo Chiat voted against govt. Maybe it's all the failed en-bloc attempts in that area. Greedy ppl can hold a grudge.

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  56. I fully agreed with comment by Toby. The sales tax levy imposed in early January this year is very exorbitant and punishing enough .. sufficient enough to weed out all speculations; you buy now and have to hold on your properties over the next 4 to 5 years or else you will be taxed heavily, unless you think that the property prices will appreciated by more than 50% in the medium term, and this scenario is very unlikely.

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  57. My take is that if this enbloc doesn't go thru', chances of another one will be quite slim. Looking at the broader picture and demographics, I think there's going to be a glut in supply - foreign demand will go down because of tightening of so-called foreign talents, building of HDB flats will be ramped up to satisfy disgrunted voters, smaller family unit, slower pace of growth perhaps, global uncertainities, etc, etc. What is scarce is landed housing, not condo. I think the next five years will see prices reversing - no longer such an attractive investment option to beat inflation -everybody want to be landlord - who is gong to rent the apartments at high rentals?

    So my advise to all hose who are still thinking that PG is a goldmine may not be - better cash out now, downgrade to smaller unit than to hold on and wait for unrealistic prices - your dream price could turn into a nightmare years to come!!

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  58. Now that KBW is the new MND minster, we can expect soft landing for private property prices - got to placate the voters, and there is another competition from Laguna Park - by the way, not asking for unrealistic prices unlike PG. Do not think that PG location is superior to other sites. Such perceptions are like mirages - unrealistic expectations will leave everyone high and dry... my two cents.

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  59. reply to the preceding mail: just compare Pine Grove and Laguna Park; which site is better and closer to say Orchard Road? At $1.7b, PG is pegged at about $910 psf ppr, and Laguna asking for $975 psf, both of which exclude DP and DC components. Look like the marketing agent for Laguna is too optimistic of the reserve price for Laguna. Just wait for the close of the Laguna Park tender, and see what is then valuation value of Laguna Park by an independent valuer.

    Looking forward to comments for everybody on the comparision between PG and Laguna Park; I personally think that overall, the PG site is better than the Laguna site.... cheers!

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  60. Do your maths, Laguna Park with plot ratio 2.8 have almost same build up area as Pine Grove and price 26% lowest. what to cheers for Pine Grove??

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  61. Pine Grove and Laguna Park Comparison

    PG gross floor area = 893219 x 1.2 = 1875760
    LP gross floor area = 677493 x 2.8 = 1896980

    PG potential = 1500 of 1200 sqft units
    LP potential = 1580 of 1200 sqft units

    PG psf include DP and DC = $1300
    LG psf include DP and DC = $975 (25% lower)

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  62. Hi Thanks for the comparison. You have a typo error on plot ratio.

    My 2 cents of contribution

    PG gross floor area = 893219 x 2.1 = 1875760
    LP gross floor area = 677493 x 2.8 = 1896980

    PG sale at 1.7b / 1875760 = $906 before DP and DC
    LP sale at 1.25b /1896980 = $659 before DP and DC

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  63. PG is nearer Orchard Road. LG is in congested area. PG wins. Hee

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  64. PG can only win if somebody buys. If this is the case then you have to take into consideration at what price. Only then we can acknowledge the results.

    Talking is useless. High price is only a dream. With the change in Minister for National Development, I can see more stringent measures coming. Believe me. This election had a great impact in all the ministers' thinking. You want to have million dollars salary, better do something for the masses, i.e., the sandwich class. Therefore, private housing (condo type) will definately be controlled. Developers most probably sitting on the fence. Just look at the enbloc for smaller sum....all taken up. Anything above 800m....developers will take a cautious approach. Therefore, PG can have potential but way below its reserved price as for now. PG estate is old and needs lots of maintenance. Just for the lift upgrade can cause a bomb...even the sinking fund cannot cover. therefore, owners are in a catch 22 situation.

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  65. Singapore's government revised up its 2011 forecast range for gross domestic product growth to 5-7 per cent from the previous forecast of 4-6 per cent, citing modest recovery in developed economies and healthy Asian growth.

    S'pore final Q1 GDP at 22.5% Q/Q, versus 23.5% estimated.

    Property market wont crash.

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  66. Another food for thought: Pine Grove is in that regional zone/area where there are more residential units than commercial/retail facilities. To redress this imbalance, it makes a strong case for the winning consortium to apply to convert the PG site into mixed development; ie commercial-cum-retail-residential, hence greatly enhances the value proposition of PG.

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  67. When the sale committee and or JLL going to release tender result?

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  68. The Folks @PropTalkMay 19, 2011 at 6:42 PM

    Anonymous (19/5/11, 3:57PM): We agree that our property market won't crash... as long as the global economic situation, and especially the US economy, remains healthy. But even the US is currently struggling to maintain its growth, so never say never! :)

    Anonymous (19/5/11, 4:01PM): We are aware of many ex-commercial plots that are being converted into mixed developments. However, we are unaware of any plot zoned for pure residential use that has been redeveloped for mix-use. We wonder if this is just a case of seeking the necessary approval from URA, or does it involve changes to the 2008 Masterplan?

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  69. Now with the not-so-positive sentiments, developers are clearly watching (agree 100% with above realistic assessment) - so don't try and push our luck too far - I doubt there will be any takers - at least the Laguna fellas are more realistic - I think they stand a better chance - sea view and oncoming mrt for marine parade. Foolish PGians who think they still stand a better chance will be disappointed. Better strike while the iron is hot (getting cold by the days..) As the saying goes.. a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.. grab the opportunity know before we tear our heads up for not realising the value now!

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  70. the big-time developers are now scratching their heads: bid higher for PG or to bid for LagunaP; time is not on PG side as the deadline to seal a private treaty is drawing to a close. very soon, the PG sales committee has to inform the PG owners of the best bids; what's your guess: mine is close to $1.4b. To "Anonymous" dated 19May@10:20pm, what's your take? Whatever the outcome of the highest bid for PG will have an important bearing on the anticipated bid for Laguna Park in June.

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  71. Replying to the above comment, I think the bid will fall short - I'm not too optimistic that there will even be a bid at $1.3b. The timing is just against us. Lets hope I am wrong.

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  72. Laguna Park justed launched the tender @ $1.33b. With all the financial ratios about the same between PineG and LagunaP, I reckon that because of the PineG proximity to Orchard Road, PineG will command about 10% premium over LagunaP; that implies value for PineG at about $1.46b,translating to about an average of $2.2m for each PineG owner, exactly at what LagunaP owner is asking for. PineG or LagunaP?... a battle of two worthy giants. What's your take and the outcome? Could be both sold, either one sole or neither one; cheers!

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  73. There will be new measures coming through post-election to appease the angry masses unhappy over the hot topic about increasing costs of properties. With that, my reading is for next few years developers will be extra cautious and not over commit. Think PG and LP will have to sit it out this time, and wait for next round, say 5 years later . My 2 cents.

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  74. I believe PG bid is dead. Their reserve at $1.7b was too high. Now no matter what is offered . . . some residents will not sign up to a perceived "lower price".

    LP has a better chance - 50/50. Internationally, sea-facing or sea-front or property commands premium. Only risk is govt intervention.

    Govt should learn to leave the markets alone. Last downturn, it should have dropped 20-30% more. Instead prices were trending sidewards in an over-supplied market.

    Now it is climbing on real demand and they want to "cool it down".

    Just let the markets work and stay out of it.

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  75. Yes, I agree that we can say good-bye to PG enbloc dream.. i think Lagunna has a better chance. The timing for PG is off!!

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  76. Should PG need to start the enbloc process again, do we need 50% of share value to form a new sale committee based on the new enbloc regulation?

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  77. PG no enbloc? Beaverton Court can be contender. Astor Green, Leighwoods, Cavendish and those condos behind....near the temple...

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  78. So far nothing heard on Pearl Bank.

    Another failed en-bloc attempt?

    Looks like all the anti-enbloc measures are working well.

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  79. The Folks @PropTalkMay 27, 2011 at 10:34 AM

    Hi Anonymous (26/5/11, 11:07AM):
    Yes, if another en bloc attempt is to be made within 2-years of a failed attempt.

    For subsequent efforts, the threshold will increase to 80%.

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  80. I think those who are for enbloc should take stock of the situation and stop asking for unrealistic prices. The sky high prices are unsustainable - all it takes is one move from the policy changes or unexpected downturn and the whole property cards will fall like dominos.
    It will get harder to enbloc in future, as the building of public flats is ramped up to meet the loud call to build and this will cause resale prices to fall, and if upgraders cannot sell high to upgrade to the likes of PG or LP, who is going to pay the $1,200+ psf pie in the sky? Why would developers want to come in at $1.7b or even $1.3b?? So, I think PG has missed the boat...

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  81. I think we must separate mass markets from up-market apartments. The new development at the ex-Fareer Court is no more a mass market condo. It is now for a higher segment of the market.

    I think PG, LP and PB will also end up being built for a new higher market segment.

    I just want the govt to build more for us at a level below these up-market apartments. Our BTO and Excutve aprtmts should be targetted at that niche and priced to sell at the level.

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  82. Talking about high market segment, how are the two high-end D'Leedon and Silverseas faring so far?
    Any info?
    That will be a good measuring yardstick.
    Is the market ready for more high-end projects now, given the current post-election mood after heated discussions on high property prices and unhappiness about rich foreign buyers.

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  83. Where does the so-called "higher-end" segment come from? they are actually the so-called higher end seqment of HDB upgraders, enblocers with the cash to buy and also the foreign buyers. If there's increased foreign buying, then perhaps there's still demand but don't forget they are spoiled for choice - so many units now available. If demand comes from local, I don't think there's alot of them - those who want to and can afford would have already made their purchases. There could be some demand coming from enblocers but some may choose to downgrade instead of lateral or upgrade. So, the game changer still comes from the upgraders aspiring to so-called "higher-end" segment and foreign play, but this seems unsustainable. Yes, agree that sales at D'Leedon would be a good gauge but again, PG locality is nowhere superior to D'Leedon & Silverseas or LP.

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  84. Quoted by TODAY paper on Monday 30/05/2011
    Page 34:

    "Laguna Park has advantages over Pine Grove, say Analysts.

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  85. The TODAY report is very biased; like some parties with vested interest trying to shoot down Pine Grove. One key point is left out: which is closer to Orchard Road as a reference; do your own "measurements" and the answer is so very obvious!

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  86. Those quoted in the TODAY paper are just playing safe. Better to say something good about LP - since it's still in play, then talk about PG which is effectively out.

    Also, I think Orchard is sooo old now. Think Marina Bay and IRs.

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  87. The issue is Price$$. If its $1.25b, perhaps there's still a chance although that might not work now?? But anything above $1.3b is a tough call. So, are PGians willing to accept a lower price? That I think, will not be easy, bearing in mind replacement cost and pyschological effect on so-called locality premium etc... What about waiting for the next few years... that might not be wise as an impending over- supply looms.. so, its a "catch-22". Sell now at lower price, if developers are still keen? or hold out? Value will likely plunge if hold out. Those SPs looking for exit will see the chance to do so diminishing..

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  88. No point comparing PG and LP. When the tender results for both is out, the results will tell. But when the Sale committee going to inform us the outcome of the PG tender????

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  89. The longer the sales committee hold information it tells us they have no good news to share. It is as simple as that. They must finalise by 27th june before private treaty expires. By the feel and look of it I think there is no much chance to realize enbloc success. Now PG got a competitor in LP. Sigh

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  90. Why worry? PG has still until 27 Nov this year to effect a transaction. If PG sale does not eventually go thru, the same fate will also befall LagunaP and other large-sites close to the city. Heard that Pandan Valley dateline to get 80% consensus is closing tomorrow, and it's only 50% YES so far. Also no go for big-sized Ridgewood etc. Well, very soon, the developers will be crying out for more landbank in the central part of Singapore, with only smaller land plots available for enbloc.

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  91. Just let the retirees stay there happily lah....

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  92. PG still has a chance. Looks like the new measures are to be put into place gradually. But the announcement is early s everyone can react and plan accordingly.

    I think there is one more last swing left for the developers and current enblocers. The new measures will make housing affordable at the lowest end of the market. It is not necessarily targetting the so-called higher end.

    The demand for that segment might or might not be so affected. We really have to see. But like I said PG, LP, etc. still has one last round.

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  93. yes, property is all about location, location and location. the closer the location is to districts 9,10 and 11, the more expensive the place is.... just look at prices of residential units within walking distance to Orchard Road; location-wise, PG is superior to LagunaPark. more on that later....PG when bought will be pegged at the upper-middle and higher-end level and definitely beyond the financial means of the HDB upgraders. Public housing is public housing, and private housing is private housing. The Govt will only intervene for public housing, which addresses some 85% of the households in Singapore.

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  94. Anyone has an example in calculation of how much an owner an enbloc property gets if he owns a 1,000sqft house there? It may be vague but I seriously don't know what are the variables involve to determine how much an owner gets.

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  95. Any other PG owners receive a request to sign up to new lower Reserve Price? Am not sure whether this is right.

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  96. Can somebody let me know what is the new price? My mum who is staying there do not know anything.

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  97. 27 June 2011 has come & gone. No news. So they won't proceed. What a waste of time. Could have told you so. But 80% wouldn't listen. Only dreaming the dream. Should have sold and move to some where with more en bloc potential or move to landed property in Malaysia and build your big new blocs there.

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  98. PG en bloc no go? Is this official? Why no announcement from JLL or sale committe on the news? from non-PGean.

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  99. No announcement or anything at all. Everyone is assuming its a goner but it would be nice to hear something from JLL..

    PG resident

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  100. This is real unfair. Sales committe n JLL have lost all the trust with PG owners by keeping quiet. Very unprofessiomal. Damage done. :(

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  101. That is good news too....those around PG like Astor Green, Cavendish Park can try for en bloc. Lesser units (unlike 600 + for PG).

    Also, wait for next up cycle and we take profits then. PGers should have the last laugh

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  102. Slow and steady wins the race :)no news can be good news

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  103. Do we have to go through the whole en bloc process again (signing to get the 80%) or we still have up to Nov this year to re-tender again?

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  104. Was told that latest news from LG sales committee chairman is that developer consortium has agreed to reserve price. Any one can confirm?

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  105. The Folks @PropTalkJuly 8, 2011 at 12:04 PM

    Anonymous (8/7/2011, 8:56AM):
    If we remember correct, the collective sale process is considered a failure once the 10-weeks period for private treaties to be worked out expires. The actual date for this is June 27th, which has since passed.
    If PG is to re-tender within 2 years of a failed en-bloc, the first re-try will need approval from 50% of share value or total number of owners.
    For 2nd and subsequent re-tries, it will require 80% approval.

    Anonymous (8/7/2011, 10:12AM):
    It is certainly good news for PG if that's the case. However, since the dateline was June 27th, it seemed rather unlikely for JLL or the sales committee to withhold the info for so long.

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  106. My mother who is the owmer of a unit in PG is in the dark. Can anyone share the latest news? Is the enbloc sales gone?

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  107. The PG en bloc is still in process...pls ask your mom to check with her neighbours..:)

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  108. For those who are not familiar with the en bloc process...I suggest that you check out the information from the internet...a lot of accurate information can be found....;)guessing can be misleading.

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  109. There is no go for the private treaty. There is no interested buyer at the price the sellers want. There are not enough sellers willing to sign the supplemental CSA. The CSC are afraid to break the news and simply get the management office to shift the notice on the notice board to a new corner to show movement. The whole exercise was futile to begin with. There are strong suspicions that the CSC knew or ought to have known they could not get the price the sellers wanted but went ahead against the advice of many in the vain hope that they could get 80%+ to sign a supplemental CSA. The hope was much much too vain. Now they are likely to try to start the whole process going again with or without changes to the various teams, agents and lawyers. Likely to fail next time round too. After all why sell when the govt will build an MRT on the estate's door step (with a line heading for Orchard) and convert the canal into a landscaped river in a few years time? May as well wait for all that before trying for next en bloc.

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  110. Remember the estate is already 28-29 years old and getting older...like it or not there is no anti-aging cure for the estate. Whether or not with MRT or canal near the door steps, nothing the owners can do to expect more...except there must be a willing buyer for the asking price. Nothing is in vain so far because there is now a basis to move. Before, anyone can ask what they hope for without any basis which is alright but now there is a basis...so nothing is in vain...hehehe ;)

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  111. The Folks @PropTalkJuly 12, 2011 at 6:25 PM

    Hi Anonymous (11/7/11, 2:11PM):
    While it is true that one cannot possibly expect a 27yo condo like Pine Grove (1984) to ever look brand new without tearing the place down and rebuild, alot can be done to maintain/upgarde the estate to ensure that it continues to look respectable compared to its newer neighbors.

    Just look at what condos like Hillcrest Arcadia (31yo) and The Arcadia (28yo) have achieved in terms of maintaining/renewing their estates.

    Many a time when the enbloc fever for a particular condo is in full burn, people tend to neglect the maintenance aspect of things. This is especially since if the estate looks old and "broken", it provides more justifications for calls to enbloc.

    But you be really surprised at what good maintenance and upgrading can do to help older condos stay relevant amongst all the newer monstrosity...oops, we mean..projects. :-)

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  112. One writer said "Remember the estate is already 28-29 years old and getting older...like it or not there is no anti-aging cure for the estate."

    You are probably referring to the lease since there is such a thing as retrofitting. Buildings can stand for 100 years or more you know. With retrofitting, maybe longer. Simple improvements e.g. elegant simple tiling to replace low quality mosaic and better common area furniture will make a lot of difference. As for the reducing lease period, look you won't know if the govt will top up the lease or not until you apply and when you do, you have to see the price the govt want. It could be they offer something affordable. On the other hand, if they want you to pay an arm and a leg, well, that sets the price for Pine Grove and you can still try en bloc then.


    That writer said "Whether or not with MRT or canal near the door steps, nothing the owners can do to expect more...except there must be a willing buyer for the asking price."

    What does that mean? Are you saying condo owners who live near MRT stations and landscaped rivers cannot command better price for their properties? Maybe you won't pay for that for your next property, but others will pay handsomely.

    Finally that writer added, "Nothing is in vain so far because there is now a basis to move. Before, anyone can ask what they hope for without any basis which is alright but now there is a basis...so nothing is in vain.."

    This is where you are wrong. The en bloc exercise was futile and in vain from the very start. By pricing it completely wrong for the time, PG owners' hopes were raised and dashed. The 80%+ just duped themselves. They lacked understanding. Some say they felt conned. You may try to imply it was some kind of learning exercise or kicked things off, but other developments that have gone en bloc timed things better and were more realistic and better advised all along the way. They heeded the advice of their professional advisors.

    Instead, the idea of plucking an unrealistic price from thin air leading to a wasted en bloc attempt so leading to one price setter who made the only offer trying to set the price. This is far far from ideal for the PG owners.

    Smarted fellas would have timed the market better. Whilst other smarter cookies know better and would rather hold on for longer for more or to enjoy the place (but have to put up with the hassle of some obnoxious people).

    So who is laughing now? Those who paid the solicitors for shuffling paper around? I think not. The smart cookies the ones quietly smiling.

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  113. Whatever been said on PG enbloc that fella who sold the 1755sq ft for $1.78m is the smartest of all. He used the enbloc exercise to his advantage as I believe he do not believe the reserved price. Of course he gamble and did gamble right. Without enbloc i think it is max $s1.2m

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  114. That Anonymous 13/7/11 10.32pm....thank you for your comments...but I suggest you do a lot of reading accurate information about en bloc processes which you don't really know about...:)

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  115. The Folks @PropTalkJuly 15, 2011 at 12:26 PM

    Hi Anonymous (14/7/11, 12:24PM):

    Since most of us are eager to learn (at least we are, anyway), why don't you "educate" us on the en bloc processes?

    We reckon that you must be quite the expert, or at least have the accurate information to share.

    Thanks in advance!

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  116. All had been said. So can someone tell me if PG enbloc on going or they have called it off? Much have been said and the sales committee is still quiet. Someone told me that news of PG enbloc pasted on each block notice board was six months old.

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  117. read it for yourself...the dates are all there..can't be 6 months old as someone tried to put it.

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  118. If u know the latest info then tell us. This is what the forum is all about. This is a reply to Anonymous 18/7/11 11.06am unless u are in the sakes committee. :(

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  119. Pandan valley is going for en-bloc soon ?

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  120. Pandan Valley ..no go...50% only

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  121. So what is the latest update for pine grove? Go or no ho? The estate should cmand a premium.

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  122. I think we can forget about the enbloc, more so to even talk about a premium. What premium? Look at D'Leedon - just visit their showflat on a weekend and the whole place is like a ghost town. I don't think the big boys will dare to take even if enblocers are willing to let go at 1.25b. The game is over!!

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  123. The Folks @PropTalkAugust 2, 2011 at 8:40 PM

    Hi Anonymous (2/8/11, 5:37PM),
    Before someone asks us to go look at the notices that are supposedly posted on the PG Estate notice board, we strongly believe that the latest attempt for PG to sell en-bloc is officially dead. Having said that, there is no stopping the estate to relaunch another attempt, provided they can get 50% share values to agree to form a new sales committee.

    And yes, we agree with you that PG should command a premium (for its location). But so should Tulip Garden or even Pearlbank Apartments... in the next en-bloc cycle, that is. :)

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  124. Not just yet....not just yet my friends...

    ReplyDelete
  125. The Folks @PropTalkAugust 2, 2011 at 11:18 PM

    Hi Anonymous (2/8/11, 9:35PM)
    We are unsure if your comment is in response to ours, but if it is:

    We're more than happy to be proven wrong, my friend.... :)

    Cheers!

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  126. To the Folks @ PropTalk...I am guessing u are a PG resident? Hee hee.

    ReplyDelete
  127. The Folks @PropTalkAugust 3, 2011 at 2:39 PM

    Hi Anonymous (3/8/11, 8:48AM):
    We do live fairly nearby to PG and have friends living there as well. But that's as close to being a PG resident as we will get... :)

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  128. Anonymous 2/8/11 9:35pm

    Hi folks, don't be too eager to be proven wrong. Just wait and see. If there is one, there is one. If not, there is none.
    Hee hee.

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  129. I agree with 8/8/11 4.22pm

    PG enbloc is off for sure. Reasons, lousy strategy, wrong timing and greedy price. Please remember that developers are vultures. It's a pity as PG size can gives developers plenty of configuration in design. Well, wair for another 2 years and do not fall into the same trap.

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  130. More like 5 / 6 years?

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  131. Next cycle could be 10 yrs. By then, demand for prop may decline as many projects come on stream and too many units chasing after too few tenants/owners. Most of the older folks may not be around to cash out and "enjoy" their fruits of labour. The lease will get older and the cost to top up will go up... how to "make" from the next run?? Tough luck.. sigh...

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  132. FTs and PRs to the rescue?

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  133. "Whatever been said on PG enbloc that fella who sold the 1755sq ft for $1.78m is the smartest of all. He used the enbloc exercise to his advantage as I believe he do not believe the reserved price. Of course he gamble and did gamble right. Without enbloc i think it is max $s1.2m"

    Just as smart are those who chose not to sign because they believe they are sitting on $1.78 M and are happy to live in a $1.78 M property indefinitely or until a much better offer comes along, or until such time as the MRT station to Orchard it built.

    Why not look for a compromise? Try to identify which are the worse state blocks at Pine Grove. Target for these to be carved out into Pine Grove II. Then let Pine Grove II go en bloc separately. Leave Pine Grove I alone. If there are any minority anti-en bloc at Pine Grove II, offer them a unit at Pine Grove I by a swap with someone in Pine Grove I keen to en bloc and prepared to move to Pine Grove II. There could still be shared facilities betwenn Pine Grove I and II by some magic formula.

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  134. Reply to 15/8/11 11:50 PM
    Yes you are right to state that the fella who sold his apt for 1.78m is the smartest of all. His timing coupled with his general knowledge of the market let him cash out. Although he takes a gamble but in deeper thought I can sense his rational to sell. His unit of size 1755sqf at 1.7b reserved price is worth 2.6m which means if the enbloc is successful the new owner makes 800k within a short period of time.
    But I think the fella does not believe in the reserved price and expect if there is an offer it is lower. Several property analysts speculated at best 1.25b. Remember PG needs development charge of 460m; no small sum for the developer. Therefore, at 1.25b his unit is worth 1.9m which still leave behind good profit for the buyer.
    Well, the new buyer gambled and lost and most probably didn't do enough homework. PG enbloc failed without any reasonable offer. With the present economic situation in USA and Europe and the PAP GOVT taking steps to contain runaway property prices I believe PG enbloc exercise will not happen for next several years.
    I am not sure how much that fella bought his unit. He must have made a good killing. I believe the record 1.78m will stands for a very long time. My mum is staying in PG smaller unit since it was built. She is alright to continue staying in PG but the estate is running down. It is sad that she was talked into signing for enbloc but now the sales committee seems to avoid them like plague. Not much update after the closing of the bidding exercise. 

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  135. I understand that PG sales committee request signatures for new reserved price of $1.25b. Can anyone confirm and if it is true how is the response. I thought private treaty already expired on 27th June. So, if it is true that the new reserved price is $1.2b does it means it is a relaunch of enbloc? Anyone out there can comment.

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  136. Is PG enbloc gone? What is the current situation of the ask
    Sales committee ?
    Anyone can provide some answers? Thanks.

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  137. Oh dear. I think nobody is interested in PG enbloc. Nobody seems to care to reply. :(

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  138. Yes I think we can forget about the enbloc happening.. there are already quite a number of potential sellers getting out.. they see no hope.. so if you are looking to exit, may be good to get out.

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  139. Tks 30/8/11 10.15am

    Same thought here. I ask my mom to let go PG n move to HDB and keep the rest to enjoy her old age. PG definately need large sum of money to replace certain things. Lifts are one big chunk of money and the estate is sort of running down. Just look at most HDB.estates. They are well planned and kept clean. PG location is one thing but living in the estate is another thing. Sigh. Now the selling price wouldn't be as good like few months ago.

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  140. Today LTA announced increase in development charge starting from September. With this in place enbloc for Pine Grove and Laugna Park are no longer possible. The sad part is several owners in PG are stii advertising for sale a very high price thinking that potential buyers still believe PG still on the enbloc route. Sigh.

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  141. The Folks @PropTalkAugust 31, 2011 at 8:54 PM

    Hi Anonymous (31/8/11, 7:56PM)
    We reckon that it must be a typo, but LTA will more likely to increase ERP charges than DC. We believe you meant MND. :)

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  142. Both Anonymous 31/8/11 7.56pm & 8.54pm.

    URA is more appropriate:)

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  143. The Folks @PropTalkSeptember 3, 2011 at 7:49 AM

    Hi Anonymous (2/9/11, 10:43PM):
    We thought so (URA) at first but we have found that URA is just the executor/mouth-piece when it comes to DC revisions. It is in fact the MND (Ministry of National Development) in consultation with IRAS who jointly review and determine any changes in DC.
    See - we do check our facts. :)

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  144. Hi The Folks @PropTalk:

    You are the authority here. Thanks for the clarification. Therefore, can you tell us what is the latest situation regarding Pine Grove enbloc. Are they still looking for buyer or really call it off. So far there is no announcement from the sales comittee or the marketing agent. This is quite strange. Lots of huha when it announces the enbloc exercise but suddenly quiet.

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  145. The Folks @PropTalkSeptember 4, 2011 at 3:40 AM

    Hi Anonymous (3/9/11, 9:41PM):
    Authority?! Not quite but we always strive to get our facts right - the operative word here being "strive". :)

    On Pine Grove, we are as much in the dark as per everyone else. But we are pretty certain about 2 things:

    1. The last en bloc attempt is "dead". However, there is no stopping the estate from relaunching another attempt, provided they can get 50% share values to agree to form a new sales committee.

    2. There will be certain quarters within Pine Grove that will continue to look for buyers. But the billion dollar question is whether any developer(s) will bite given the uncertain economic climate going forward.

    Given such, the wife and I do not expect Pine Grove to go en bloc within the next 6 - 9 months.

    Cheers!

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  146. Hi The Folks @proptalk said:

    I thought that once the 80% agreed to the enbloc exercise there is a 12 months period to complete the exercise. Failure to do so PG needs to wait for 2 years to embark on another attempt. If I am not wrong PG enbloc ecpires on 12 or 27th november 2011.

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  147. Hi All,

    I just come accross this tread accidently and find that everyone is very well verse in enbloc process. I recently just signed a tenancy agreement to start renting a condo in Oct for a year. I was told by the owner that the development is already sold for enbloc but is currently going through a Strata Titles Board approval. Seperately I was told by the agent that the en bloc may not necessary go through and I can continue to say there until it is confirmed. However, he was not able to tell me what are my risk and the posibilities. I am paying him a commission for helping to look for the flat and I could posibly lose it if I have to move out just 3 months after I move in, plus having to find another property to stay will not be very funny.

    Can anyone advise me if it is true that even if there is a buyer for the developement, the enbloc will still not happen if they don't get the Strata Titles Board approval?

    Could anyone tell me what my risk are?

    The Lost & worried

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  148. The Folks @ProptalkSeptember 6, 2011 at 9:29 PM

    Hi Anonymous (6/9/11, 12:45PM):
    You are generally correct - one of the instances of a failed en bloc attempt is "where a collective sale committee stands dissolved at the end of 12 months after the collective sale committee is constituted and no collective sale agreement had been executed by any subsidiary proprietor". (in the words of STB)

    So depending on when the PG collective sale commitee was actually constituted, we reckon that they still have a month (or two) of tenure left. The current committee can always re-launch another tender during the remaining period, provided they can get 80% approval for the new (lower) reserve price.

    After the 12 months have passed, the collective sale is considered a failure. And for subsequent attempts to requisite a general meeting to discuss collective sale within 2 years of a previous failed attempt, "the first requisition in that period of 2 years after a failed attempt must be made by at least 50% of the total number of subsidiary proprietors or by subsidiary proprietors owning at least 50% of the aggregate share values of all lots in the strata title plan. For a second or subsequent attempt within the 2 years the requisition must be made by at least 80% of the total number of subsidiary proprietors or subsidiary proprietors owning at least 80% of the aggregate share values of all lots in the strata title plan". (again in the words of STB)

    Cheers!

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  149. The Folks @PropTalkSeptember 8, 2011 at 2:47 PM

    Hi Anonymous (6/9/11, 6:51PM) aka The Lost & worried:
    We were hoping some of our "more informed" readers will take you up on your questions. But here's our 2 cents

    1. Yes, the en bloc sale will still fall through if STB approval is required and not granted, irrespective of whether there is a buyer.

    2. You can rightfully stay put at your rental place until a decision is made by the STB about the collective sale.

    3. Even if the STB approves and the sale is finalized, there is usually a stipulated period before residents of the estate have to move out. This can be anywhere between 6 - 9 months.

    4. Your downside risk is that you may need to vacate the apartment before your lease is up. Having said that, it all depends on how long a lease you are in for.

    5. From what you have told us, the owner and agent have already informed you that the estate is going through a collective sale. As such, the onus is on you to decide if you still want to rent the apartment given the uncertainty, which you apparently did.

    6. Your only recourse is to go through your rental agreement again to see if there is any specific provision for early termination of lease in case of a successful en bloc - there will likely to be such a provision. But if there is none, you may still be able to argue on that basis and possibly seek some form of redress (e.g. partial refund of commission or payment in lieu of early lease termination) from the agent/owner.

    Hope the above helps and good luck!

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  150. Understand that the PG sales committee has asked residents to vote for a much reduced reserved price from 1.7b to 1.25b. So far they have receive a cold reception. I think they managed to get the initial 80% because of the attractive 1.7b. Therefore the sales committee had oversold the enbloc reserved price. Too bad, damage done.

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  151. If PG is going for another enbloc exercise the sales committe must do some damage control. It is not too late.

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  152. LP is on tender at reduced price of 1.25 b, any news from PG? The one year period after achieved 80% of agreement for en bloc ending soon.

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  153. I think the grace period is ending in Nov. I seriously doubt there is any chance of success even at reduced price cos the systemic risks are too high for developers to take position next year. Too bad wrong timing and missed opportunities last year..

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  154. So, what is the final outcome of PG. Any kind soul can offer an answer?

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  155. All SPs should have by now received a letter from Jones Lang informing that the deadline has expired -so the enbloc is dead!!

    Can forget about another enbloc as with all the uncertainities plus an impending glut in 2013, so developers are no fools to take position next year.
    See all the big multi-billion $ projects such as Laguna, etc has no takers.

    Stay put or sell, if you really need to exit (lease getting older). Rental will also come under pressure in one to two years' time.

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  156. It is going to take a long time for PG to take the enbloc route again. The estate needs big maintenance budget. Therefore it is in a dilemma.

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  157. Yes definitely... I'm very certain the estate value will plumment in view of the vast supply of newer development coming fast and furious in the next few years. It's going to be very costly to maintain and upgrade as well. Anyway, the PGians have their chances (3 x) to go enbloc in the last 3 yrs but were too "greedy" or "sentimental" to let go... hence will have to "pay the price" henceforth. Hence, the saying.. strike while the iron is hot!!

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  158. PG is leasehold property and is 25 years old or more. I understand development charge goes up exponentially with age. So even if PG secures 1.7b asking price, the amount for each owner will get less as the property gets older. I doubt they can keep raising prices to cover this development charge.

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  159. I happen to stumble upon this blog. The price for PG 1700+ sqf has fallen down substantially. I saw there are several units for sale and has been advertising for quite awhile. The record stands at $1.78m since Dec 2011. That guy who sold the unit knows the property market very well. He or she is laughing all the way to the bank. For this who were enbloc supporters must be very disappointed.

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  160. I happen to stumble upon this blog too. My wife and I view several units in PG for the last couple of weeks. I must say the estate is in a quite run down state. I was told by a agent that the lifts will be upgrade soon.

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  161. Did u see what the recent transacted prices are @ Oct 2012. boo hoo cry. The prices dipped. Should hv en bloc - everybody win then

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  162. Area Transacted PSF


    1755 1.62m 923
    1701 1.438m 846
    1668 1.390m 833

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  163. So the record sale of 1.78m stands till today. Congratulations to the guy who sold the unit and get out. I visited Pine Grove some weeks ago. The estate needs big maintenance.

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  164. I happen to go over to Pine Grove to pick up some stuff and noticed that the place is really really large and I started to check the website for sale units. Prices range from 1.4mil onwards. Would this still be a property worth buying to settle down to stay? The new projects are amazingly small and expensive therefore I am attracted to to 1,600 sq ft plus size. JS

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  165. Pine Grove estate is huge. The blocks were built far apart from each other. However, the estate needs substantial maintenance. It looks tired. I have checked the transacted price. The popular unit size of 1700+ soft is around 1.4m or 1.5m. The highest price stands at 1.78m since 2010. The owner of that unit cash out at the right time. Till today the record is unbroken and most probably stays due to the fact pine grove getting old.

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  166. took me a while to read the long long thread on PG as i'm considering a unit there. like the preceeding writer, i am also attracted by the large units and also the opportunity to do a major overhaul renovation. however what are the chances of enbloc? is it still worth to get a unit there?

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